Mrs. Dorothy “Dottie” Bryan

(Born 1922) 

Husband: Robert (Married on June 5, 1942)

Children: Wyllian and Robert Junior

When were you born?

January the 13^th 1922. On Friday—Friday the 13^th. (Laughter)

Did your parents tell you anything funny about your birthday?

No, my mother died when I was about 2 and a half, and I was raised by my grandmother. There were 4 children. They tell me that my mother knew that she was not going to make it, so she requested that two of the children go with her parents and two with my daddy’s parents. So, that’s what they did. I was raised by my grandmother and granddaddy, but they never told me anything funny about Friday the 13^th. (Laughter)

So did you have brothers and sisters?

I had one brother, but he died when he was 6. Oh, I’m sorry. He had mastoids. It’s a disease of the ear, and they didn’t have penicillin or anything like that. So, my younger sister and I lived together. That must have been fun. Yes, we had a good time.

What is her name?

Her name was Virginia, but we called her Neine. (Laughter) I don’t know how we got that name. I guess we couldn’t say Virginia. And, she’s gone now, so I’m the only one left.

What were your parent’s names? Or your grandparent’s names, I guess?

My grandparents, their last name was Teates.

What was your childhood like?

Well, it was happy. We had a good time playing together. I can’t remember any bad things about it. It was fun. Well, that’s great. Yes.

Did you all grow up in Virginia?

Virginia, that’s the house that we grew up in (pointing to a framed painting), and we had a big yard in the front. We’d play, and we had a little walkway. Cement—we roller-skated on it. And we lived across the road from the school.

So, did you walk to school every morning?

Oh, yes, and my grandmother kept boarders. She kept teachers. Of course, it was just a little town. There was no hotel or motel, so different families boarded the teachers. We always had teachers. That’s so cool.

Do you remember any fun ones? Did you get to talk to the teachers a lot?

Yes. In fact, I was in love with the principal! (We all laugh.) I thought he was wonderful, but they were really like brothers because we just lived so close, you know. We had a good time with them, and they treated us really well. It sounds like fun. Yes, it was.

Was it a place out in the countryside or a little small town?

It was a little, teeny town. I think the population was fifty! (We all laugh.)

So you pretty much knew everyone?

Yes, that’s right. The school was consolidated; they’d bus children in from all around. It was a happy life. My grandparents were real good to us. Of course, we got switched sometimes when we misbehaved. I think children need switches more, now, than their parents give them.

*Now did your two sets of grandparents live near each other?*

It wasn’t far, but we didn’t see them too much… But it wasn’t too far. They lived in the little town next to us.

Did you get to see your other siblings on holidays or anything?

Yes, but we grew closer, really, when we grew up. My older sister went to Washington to work and lived with relatives in Washington D.C. We’d see her often.

Did your grandparents tell you any stories about their lives to you? Any family stories, anything about family heritage or traditions?

Well, not really. Now, my grandmother’s mother lived with us at one time before she died, and of course, we got to know her—my great grandmother. My grandfather’s mother lived up the road from us, and we went to see her every Sunday. After church, we’d go up there, so we got to know her. That must have been really special. Yes.

Do you remember anything that stood out about the Roaring Twenties? Did all that excitement impact your family at all? Or anything with the Great Depression, too, afterward?

Well, that’s why I was with my grandparents because my father lived with his parents. My father’s family had a big dairy farm, and I was born on that. But, when my mother died, it was the Depression. That’s why I think she said to break the family up, you know.

My grandfather was agent and operator of the railroad, The Southern Railway, so he had a good job. We didn’t want for anything. We had everything we needed or wanted That’s wonderful.

Did you ever get to hang out around the railroad or see what it was like?

Yes, we’d do that some. One thing that was fun was that there were people in Maryland who had homing pigeons, and they would send the pigeons out of town. To my grandfather—we’d let them out, and he’d have to telegraph the time and all. We would help him let them out and look for eggs, and that was fun. (Laughs…) We loved doing that. That sounds cool.

What about high school? Was high school really far away?

No, it was in the same building. That’s where my principal was the history teacher, and of course, I said I was in love with him. (Laughs…) We just admired him. The agriculture teacher and the principal both lived with us.

What was your favorite subject in school? Was it history?

No, I really didn’t have a [favorite subject]. I just studied them all. That’s good too. We sat around the dining room table and studied.

Did you ever get to ask questions to the teachers that lived with you if you didn’t understand something?

No, I don’t remember that.

What about after high school? When did you leave home, or did you stay in the town?

No, I came to Atlanta. I had an uncle and aunt that lived in Atlanta. They were transferred to Atlanta with the Southern Railway when the home office moved from Washington to Atlanta. I came down here and went to business school and lived with my uncle and aunt. It’s long gone now, but it was Crichton Business College in Atlanta.

Is Atlanta really different now?

Oh, yes—so different. I don’t even know where I am, now (Laughs), and I used to know every place. It’s grown, and it’s changed. That was when I came to Atlanta in 1938. After I finished business school, I got a job, and I met this man in a church that worked for the telephone company. He got me a job at the telephone company—Southern Bell. That’s where I met my husband. Really! When did you all meet? In 1941. We married on June 5, 1942.

What was your wedding day like?

Well, there was no gas; you had to go where there was gas. We married in the Presbyterian manse. (That’s where the preacher lived—in the Presbyterian Church.) We went to Alabama because that’s where you can get gas. And Tennessee—you had to go where you could get gas because it was rationed. Our honeymoon was there—in Alabama and then Tennessee.

And then he went off; he joined the army and went off in September. He went overseas and didn’t come back for three years. Oh, my goodness. *That’s a long time.* And you were newlyweds! But there were a lot of them [a lot of years to enjoy].

Did you all write letters back and forth?

Yes, I wrote him everyday. He didn’t write everyday, but he wrote some beautiful letters. I’ve got them all. He was wonderful.

What was it like for you during the war?

Well, I was working for the telephone company, and of course, we had a lot of government contracts. My grandmother came down and lived with me for part of the time, but we had to move so much because we’d get an apartment where the male [of the family] had been in the service and then he’d come home. So, we’d have to move. We lived in several different places during that time. My grandmother was with me most of the time, and my sister was with me some.

Do you remember right when the war ended where you were or what it felt like when you heard that the war was over?

Well—of course, I was more interested in Bob’s coming home… I remember that he came on a train to Atlanta, and I was living in Decatur at that time. He came walking in—I didn’t know what time he’d be there, you know. He came walking in, and he said that he met a friend [on the street] that he had known before he went overseas. The friend passed him on the street and said, “Hello Bob.” And he’d be gone for 3 years! (Laughs…) He said he felt so funny, you know.

Then, I quit work, and we had our first little girl in 1946. We had our son in 1950.

What are their names, your children?

Well, we lost our daughter. She had breast cancer, and she died in 2001. Her name was Wyllian. That was my mother’s name too. That’s a beautiful name; I don’t think I’ve ever heard it before. Well, they say that when my mother was born, her good girlfriend telegraphed [my grandmother] and said, “Name her Wyllian. It’s the feminine for William.” And that was my grandfather’s name, William. So, I said that if I ever had a little girl, I’d name her Wyllian… but she had a hard time with that name. (Laughs…) My son’s name is Robert. He’s a Junior [Robert Junior].

Did they get along when they were growing up?

Oh, yes. Of course, my son gave her a hard time (chuckles), but he’s wonderful. I couldn’t do without him.

When they were growing up, did you have any fun pets or animals?

We had a dog that lived outside, but we always had a dog.

Was there one decade [that was your favorite], like the 50’s or the 60’s? Or something that stood out that you, had the most fun in, or were the craziest styles? Listened to the most famous music? Like the 40’s or the 50’s?

Of course, the Big Bands were our favorites. I don’t know much about the music nowadays, but we loved the Big Bands. I’ve listened to some of that music; it’s great dance music. That was music, I think. Now, I don’t understand it. (We all laugh…)

Did you and your husband go out dancing a lot?

Well, we went some, but not all the time. I wasn’t a very good dancer; he was good, but I wasn’t.

Once you got married and once he came back, did you a keep up with your job and your career?

No, I quit. To raise your children? Yes.

Was it hard raising your children?

No…no. (Chuckles…) They were good children.

What was the best part about being a mother?

Well, just loving them. Of course, I did love them. Like I said, they were good children.

Do you remember any main national events after the war? Or any world events? Anything throughout history that stands out? Or that impacted you? You could talk about your favorite president or famous politicians?

No, not really. Of course, the atomic bomb, I guess, was a terrible thing, but it brought my husband home. I had mixed emotions about that.

So, what are some of your hobbies now? What interests have you had over the years? Or what’s been the most fun to do?

Well, gardening. I used to love to work in the yard. Of course, now I can’t do it, but I used to love that.

Do you have a favorite flower?

I guess the roses. I love flowers. I used to raise them, but now I can’t.

When you were younger during World War II, did you all have a victory garden, or did you know people who did? Were those popular?

No, we didn’t, but when we moved to Peachtree City, we had gardens. We really raised a lot of vegetables. Of course, we had a big garden at home when I was growing up.

What kind of vegetables did you grow?

Potatoes, carrots, beans, and corn. A little bit of everything. They had grape vines—beautiful, white grapes that were so good. Did you make into jelly or just eat them right off them vine? No, my grandmother did [make jelly]. She did all kinds of things, and she made wine. Oh, really? Yeah. Did she make dandelion wine? Yeah, she made dandelion wine. And elder bloom. Elderberry? Elderberry and elder bloom, and we used that for communion some. It reminds me of Anne of Green Gables a little bit. Have you read those books or seen the movies? Yes, I’ve seen the movies. I love those movies. Those are some of my favorites. Yes.

I remember that because there was that one funny scene where she got her friend drunk by accident because they were drinking wine instead of the juice they were supposed to drink. (Laughs…) I remember that one.

What’s your favorite book? Or even when you were growing up?

I didn’t read like I should have, I don’t have a favorite book.

What about movies? Do you like to watch movies?

Oh, yeah. I like the old ones; I watched the old timey ones, the black and whites and all that.

Have you seen lots of the ones with Katherine Hepburn?

Yeah, she’s good. And Cary Grant, I think, is my favorite… or maybe Clark Gable. (Chuckles…)

Did you ever meet anyone famous or go any concerts or anything?

One time, when I was working in the Hurt Building in Atlanta, Tyrone Power was in. I don’t know why he came, but all the girls were anxious to see him. And I remember that I went down to the lobby and saw him. I just ran up to him and hit him on the back! (We all laugh…)  Why I did that I don’t know, but I did. Was he polite? He just walked on. (Laughs…) That’s funny. I’ll never know why he was there.

So, when you were younger, outside of school, did you have any pastimes that you liked to do, like hanging out with friends, hiking, swimming, dancing, or playing any sports?

Well, we didn’t do that in that little town, and my grandmother was very strict. I couldn’t date until after I graduated. Really? Yeah, and I didn’t. (Laughs…) I knew better. She was protective of us. My younger sister—she kind of rebelled. (Laughs…) Yes, but I thought you were supposed to mind your parents.

What do you think you’re most proud of out of everything you’ve done? Is there one big accomplishment? It could be something small, too, that you remember from your childhood that you were so proud of? Or even raising your children? I mean, I know that’s a big accomplishment.

*She raised two fine children. I’ll say that.* Well, I guess [raising our children] and our church life. We’ve been church-going from the beginning. Well, not from the beginning, but… Of course, I’m living on memories now. That’s wonderful—lots  of good memories.

So do you remember any big inventions that you were really surprised about? Crazy inventions that you remember? Or important ones? Like the washing machine or something that made a big difference?

(Laughs…) Well, all of those—and the microwave, I guess—that was good. Of course, during the war, we couldn’t get all those things. I remember we had an icebox where we had to get ice and put them in… and the ringer-type washing machine. So, they were big improvements. Did you have to hang up clothes on a clothesline after you washed them? Yes, yes. That’s right because we didn’t have dryers. (Chuckles…)

What about deliverymen and stuff? Did they have to deliver the ice for your icebox? Yes, but that wasn’t too long. I remember it was hard to find things like that.

I know you were talking about your religion, but what are some of your philosophical beliefs about life? And what’s gotten you through the hard times?

Well, Jesus has gotten me through, and my husband was real strong.

So, would you say that your family has probably been one of the biggest things that has made all of your experiences really happy and your life successful?

Yes. I think my grandparents—their dedication to us and taking us in. Because my grandmother was just fifty when she [took in] me and my 8 months old sister, and she raised us.

So were they your main role models when you were growing up?

Well, my grandfather and grandmother… and the memory of my mother. She must have been wonderful.

*I’ll answer here that Dottie’s daughter, Wyllian, and her husband—how long were they married before they adopted the children? Do you remember? Do you remember how long they married before they adopted?*

It seems like it was 19 years ago.

*It was a good while, and they adopted four children. The four were related and were siblings, but some of the church ladies had a shower when Wyllian instantly became a mom. I always admired Wyllian and Micheal for doing that—big hearts.* Wow,yeah.

Where did the children come from? Did they come from this country?

Yes. Georgia. So you get to see them frequently? Well, not now I don’t. They’ve got their own families, and they’re busy.

Did you get to do much traveling? I know you grew up in Virginia and then came to Georgia. Did you get to go to any other states?

No, no. Just here and there. Living in the south. Yes.

Where did you say that you grew up in Virginia?

It was a little town called Bealeton. It’s near Warrenton and Fredericksburg. Yes, it’s pretty.

So did you visit a lot of the battlefields growing up?

Well, after I grew up, I did. When you were old enough to appreciate it? Yes, to Gettysburg—we went there once.

We didn’t do a lot of traveling, really. Well, my grandparents were busy working and raising us, so we didn’t do a lot of traveling. But, we came down to Atlanta every summer to visit my uncle and aunt.

Are there any shops or stores in Atlanta that stand out that you remember going to or any fun places that you hung out?

Well, Rich’s was, I guess, our favorite. Of course, it’s long gone now. Of course, we didn’t even need to lock our house. Really? No. Back in those days, I remember when Wyllian married, we never thought of locking our house. When she started getting all of her gifts, Michael said, “Y’all better lock the doors.” (We all laugh…) But, you know, we lived in a neighborhood where we didn’t worry about that. Because you knew everyone, right? And trusted them? Yeah, that’s right.

*Did you ever take Robert and Wyllian to ride the pink pig at Rich’s at Christmas?*

You know, we went, but I can’t remember them riding that. But, we used to go to Rich’s. (Mhmm)

*One summer, my husband took Dottie and me on a tour in Atlanta. It’s been ten years or more, I guess, but Dottie could remember a lot of what used to be there. Of course, we were looking at what was there, but it was interesting because my husband is a native. So, they could talk about, you know, times gone by, and it was interesting.*

This is kind of a big question, but what advice do you have for younger generations and people like your grandchildren or people like me to live a good happy life and enjoy it?

Well, I think you need to grow up in a church, and you need to love your family and respect them. Be careful what organizations you join, and just love each other. That’s great advice.

Have you supported specific organizations or anything? Or advocated any causes throughout your life? You’ve been a big part of your church, you said, and that’s a big cause.

Mm-hmm. Well, now, that’s about it, That’s a big one; that’s great.

*Dottie’s done a lot of different things in the church.*

Are you a volunteer?

Yes, I enjoy that.

 So do you go to the Presbyterian Church here?

No, Methodist. Bob was Methodist, and I went with him. We were married by a Presbyterian minister, but I joined the Methodist Church with him.

I did have a happy life growing up, and I’ve had a lot of sorrow, too, but I’ve managed to live through it. I’ve got so many friends, and I think friends are wonderful. I think you need friends; I couldn’t have managed all this without friends.

Ms. Joan Sallis (Part II)

(Born 1936)

Parents: Jewell Hall and Augustus “Buck” Chamblin

Siblings: Frank Reed and “Little Buck”

Children: Julie

(Continued from Part I…)

Do you think it was your passion for history and geography that [drove you toward traveling and working for US embassies]?

Oh, I think it was my love of history and love of literature, but history mainly. When I was in Venezuela, it was interesting [because] we got to go down into the jungles mainly. Julie got to go with me, and it was wonderful. That kind of travel was great. But then, I volunteered for a service in Beirut, Lebanon. While Jimmy Carter was president? Just about the time that the hostages were taken out of neighboring Iran, and that was a problem. But I still volunteered and got to go just when they bombed the Marine barracks outside of the embassy in Lebanon.

But I got to go to Lebanon, and I decided that Moses had misunderstood God and that God meant for him to go to Lebanon as the land of milk and honey because it was. I mean, they had strawberries this big (showing me her fist). Huge fruits, like peaches that ripen in your mouth! Beautiful stuff! I’ve decided that Lebanese food is better [than Mediterranean food] because the French had a mandate in Lebanon for a while, so they mixed French gourmet cooking with Lebanese gourmet cooking. It turned out to be really, really good! I was also in Syria, and their food was much like the Lebanese, but it just lacked that touch that the Lebanese food had, so it wasn’t quite as good. But, it was nice; it was great.

You were working with the Embassy in all these different places?

Yes. I went from the embassy in Caracas to the embassy in Beirut, and I went to work in the political office. Embassies are divided up into different offices, so I was the secretary to the chief political officer. It was interesting because Middle Eastern politics was amazing then; it’s horrible now, but it was amazing when I was there.

In what ways was it amazing? Was it just really organized and different?

No, the culture was so… You’re dealing with the Lebanese, and you’ve got Sunni Lebanese and Shi’a Lebanese and Christian Lebanese, and they are vastly different. Sunni and Shi’a are the most different.

The Israelis started bombing Lebanon. We thought they were not going to because they talked with Bagen when he was president, and they were not going to bother us. But then, it got worse and worse and worse. They were bombing the Beirut airport, and the ambassador decided that they had to evacuate some of us.

When I left Lebanon, I went to the Dominican Republic, and I was working for a political officer [there], but he was just not a good officer. He was as dull as dishwater, and I thought, “Oh my gosh,” but it was okay. The young political officer I had worked with in Lebanon called me when I was in the Dominican Republic, and he said, “Joan, would you consider coming back?” and I said, “I will come back so quick!” He said, “Well, we’ve got a good ambassador who’s just been named. He is brilliant, but he’s not a people person, and you are the most people person I know.” He said, “I think you’d be so good with him, and I think he needs your enthusiasm.”

Anyway, I talked to him, and he asked me to come, so I went back to Lebanon. I cut my time in the Dominican Republic short and went back to Lebanon, and it was fabulous. It was still really, really, really good.

And you were never frightened or anything?

We had one time that I came anywhere close to anything. Syria and Israel sort of fought their war in Lebanon; they thought that was much easier than being on their own land. That was when things got tense. We had a really good ambassador; he was the political officer there who became the ambassador—Ryan Crocker. (He’s still doing a lot of work over there.) We had an ambassador who had his own office, but Ryan’s wife was working for the Econ officer, I think. She wanted to work with [Ryan], but she really couldn’t, so I did. We got along fine, and I loved the job.

Then, the bombing started. They were bombing the airport, so the ambassador said, “Okay, some of you are going to have to go back. We’re going to have to cut back on the people.” I knew that I would stay because I was the political officer’s secretary. So, the ambassador called me and said, “Joan, I know you’re supposed to stay, but you know the situation I have with Ryan Crocker and his wife. He will stay if she can stay, and she can stay if you go. We can give her your job, and it would make sense for her to stay.” But, he said, “I swear I’ll get you any job I can to get you anywhere you want to go.” It took all I had to think about the team and all of that, and I said okay. When you’re in the Foreign Service, you have so many days of home leave when you can go home, like once a year or something. I had had my home leave, so I said, “I’m not eligible for home leave right now; can I go someplace else?” He said, “Oh yeah, where do you want to go? Name anyplace.” I said, “Egypt,” and he said, “I’ll get you a TDY (temporary duty yonder/ assignment) in Egypt.” And he did.

We went from Lebanon to Greece and waited to see where the different ones of us who couldn’t go back yet (well, we could’ve, but it wasn’t legal for us to) would go. The ambassador’s secretary in Egypt was going, so I got a six-week’s TDY to work in the ambassador’s office. Egypt is just fantastic!

Did you get to meet lots of people and do lots of tourism [when you went to these places]?

Yes, all of that. Even in Venezuela, I liked the local people very much. I liked to meet the local people. A lot of the wives of officers didn’t want to meet them, so I got to meet so many people in Venezuela. The woman who was our cashier (I can just see her now, but I can’t remember her name) was great, and she would say, “Joan, we’re going out for tapas.” They have little tapas bars, so they would invite me to go out with them, and I would. It was great. None of the officer’s wives would ever go, so I got involved. I met all the local people. So, you got that much more out of it. Oh yeah, it was so much fun!

When you were in Venezuela, did you know Spanish?

No, they gave me lessons. They tutored me in Spanish, and luckily, I think Spanish is one of the easiest languages because it’s enough like English. French is very different, but Spanish is just very similar. I picked up a lot of Spanish and thoroughly enjoyed it and got to go out. We got to tour places and all the countryside, which was beautiful.

[When I went to Egypt], the Egyptian people were lovely—super nice people, and they would show you different things in their country. They were happy to, and they would take you out to dinner. It was just so much fun!

When you were meeting all those people from different cultures that were so different from the American culture, did you ever have any experiences where people were rude to Americans?

No, because usually, I met the people in connection with the Embassy. I met them outside, but I was with a group from the Embassy or something like that. They are rarely ever rude to Embassy people because they may want to come to the United States. I never had any bad time as far as meeting people; they were always welcoming.

When I [finished] the TDY time in Egypt, I went back to Washington, and that’s when I first got to think about going back to Beirut from then. I was walking with our political officer, and I fell down the stairs of a Crusader’s castle. What country was this in? This was in Lebanon. There’s a place in Lebanon where there are lots of Crusader castles. There are more in Syria than in Lebanon, but I fell down the stairs and broke my ankle. The State Department insisted that I come back and be evacuated, and I said, “Only if you promise me that I can go back.” He said, “Yeah, you can go back, but you have got to heal because you can’t be running around in Lebanon if you have a broken ankle,” so I went back [to the United States]. I got to meet my new grandson, and it was very, very nice.

One of the political officers said, “Joan, we’ll send you anywhere you want to go,” and I said, “Beirut.” He said, “Anywhere you want to go except Beirut.” I said, “You promised me that I could go back, and that’s where I want to go.” He said, “ Joan, you’re crazy. There are all these other places that are fabulous, too,” and I just wouldn’t [go]. So, they sent me back, and that’s when I got there after the Marines’ barracks had been bombed. We were not in the town, like we had been; we were out where the ambassador’s residence was in Yarze. It was a wonderful residence with a lot of land, so we were all staying there.

When the barracks were bombed, where you in Lebanon?

No, I was in Egypt, but when we went back, that was when Hezbollah had started kidnapping Americans. They were kidnapping them and holding them.

What was it like being a woman in the Middle East?

I was lucky. The best part of the Middle East to me is the part that is by the Mediterranean. So, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, and Jordan don’t make the women wear all the coverings. The women can go to the beach in skinny bikinis, so I’ve never served in a country that was not like Lebanon. Even Egypt is so close to that area.

The one place I really wanted to go was Egypt. I had six weeks, but I wanted a regulatory in Egypt. I never got it, though. There was never an ambassador that I knew. If you want to go someplace and your tour is up, you can bid on a job, and I bid on it, but there was never anyone that I knew there, so it was difficult. When Bartholomew (who was the ambassador) left Lebanon, he went to Madrid, Spain and took me with him. Your ambassador can take you or ask you to go with him if you want to, and I did. I hadn’t wanted a European job, but Spain is different. It’s a marvelous place. My Spanish was good enough that I could be understood. When I was in Lebanon, I took Arabic (Lebanese). I couldn’t carry on a social conversation, but at the bazaar, I could ask, “How much is that?” and stuff like that. I could say, “The ambassador’s not here right now; he’ll be back.” (Those kinds of easy, business things.)

My Spanish got good enough, though, to carry on social conversations, and that was very nice. When Bartholomew (my ambassador) left Spain, he was going back to D.C., and I said, “Sir, I have no desire to serve in Washington. I just don’t want to. If you go to someplace that’s not D.C., I’ll be with you in a minute.” (He was a great ambassador—the best one I ever worked with.)

Anyway, I went to Syria after Spain, and I enjoyed Syria very much. Syria’s more conservative about women, right? No, they were not before. Now, they are. We could go to the beach, and it was fine. They didn’t wear the whole coverings. They would wear a raincoat and a scarf; that was the easy way to do it, but they didn’t have to do that. They weren’t forced to do that sort of thing.

While you were in all these places, especially the Middle East, did you feel like you could understand the cultures and the religions more? Did you learn about their ideas? Did it shape your philosophies?

No, I was pretty hard-nosed Protestant; I was brought up Southern Baptist. At first, the Baptists were going to say that we couldn’t go to Disney World, and I said, “Well, okay, all my life, I have followed [the Baptist Church], but I’m not going to follow you here.” (We all laugh…) I stayed with the Protestant religion, and I still very much believe in Christ and that sort of thing but not Catholicism, really.

[After going all over the world, though,] you get another view of what we do looks to them and what they do looks to us, and it’s really odd. You just get a whole different view of things. Since I had left the Foreign Services, I was going to church in Destin, and they had classes for women and classes for seniors. I went to the classes, and they decided that this woman was going to teach us. (That’s when they started deciding that we couldn’t go to Disney World.) I don’t believe that God does things like that. I had gone to this class because I was divorced, and a lot of times in Protestant churches, they don’t like people who are divorced. There’s no place for you; you don’t fit in anywhere. I was fitting in fine there, though, but I left to find another church in Destin (where I was) that did not have Sunday School classes and all but that had really good sermons and discussions. I liked that, so I was fine. But, I didn’t feel that I was an outcast or that I didn’t fit in any of the places that I was.

Anyway, when I left Syria, I went to Chile, and that was wonderful. That was my last posting.

How long ago was it [that you had your last posting]?

I retired in 1995. (The 80’s and 90’s were my time there.) I went into the Foreign Services in the late 70’s when Carter was president. Then, they rescued the hostages from Iran, and that was the very early 80’s. I know I went home for Christmas, and my older brother was there. He gave me a bright red polka-dot shirt, and I said, “What is this?” He said, “That’s for my stupid sister who is going to wear it when they put her on television as one of the hostages. She was determined to go back there!” I bet your family was worried for you… Oh yeah, my mother very worried; she was still alive until I went into Syria, but oh, my brother was angry. He said, “I can’t believe you’re doing this! I know you’re crazy, but I can’t believe you’re this crazy!” He really was upset with me.

Is there a decade where you think you most associate yourself with—that had the best fashions, best music, or best memories?

Well, the best music was in the 60’s and 70’s, I think. I guess I was freer once I went overseas. I was free, and I could move. That made a big difference.

Do you think that’s why you love traveling, too—because of independence?

I assume so. I don’t know whether I got more independence because I traveled. I’m not sure, but I think when you go to these countries, you need to be independent. I also like how you took a stand and told people how you felt and which countries you wanted to go to. You didn’t let them put you in places like Washington D.C. if you didn’t want to go there. No, I really didn’t, and I told the guy that I came into the State Department with, “I don’t ever want to work in Washington. I don’t like what you do here.” (We laugh.) If you have a good record, they will not make you go someplace you do not want to go, so I made sure I had a good record. That worked well.

Chile was really an interesting country; I didn’t think it would be. I tried to go somewhere else, but everywhere in the Middle East was really Shi’a based (a rigid religion).

So, what kind of hobbies do you have?

Reading is my hobby. I guess I should do something else, but when you get right into it, it’s reading. I love to read, and I can just sit back and get lost in a book… or two or three!

Do you have a favorite book?

Well, Gone with the Wind is fantastic, but there are so many others that are fantastic, too.

I took up painting while I was in Florida before I moved up here and really liked it. I’ve got about four or five paintings that I really like.

What kind of materials do you work with [when you paint]?

I worked with oil before, and here, there’s a woman that gives classes on Fridays. I went to her classes and did a couple of paintings, but I didn’t like them, so I quit. Then, they had another woman in who teaches with acrylics, and I did a class with her. She was very good, and I really liked it. I’ll try it again. I didn’t like what I had done, and then I saw it and didn’t realize it was mine and thought it was someone else’s in the class that I really liked. It was mine, so I guess it wasn’t as bad as I thought. (We all laugh…

Do you usually paint landscapes or still lifes? Or do you do places that you’ve been?

No, I haven’t done that. That would be really cool! When I was in Florida, I painted two of the ocean.

If you could support one genre of fine arts, what would it be?

I would support art, painting, and symphony if I had a chance to do that.

What about pets? Have you had any favorite pets?

My mother would not let us have pets when I was growing up. You could have anything you wanted outside, but you could not have them in the house. I had a little rat terrier, but then my older brother came back and took me back to California when I was about twelve. So, I left the dog, and Mother said that the dog ran away. I found out later that she gave it away because she didn’t want to deal with it and she wasn’t sure when I was going to get back. I don’t blame her.

When my daughter was a kid, we got a good, little dog. She and her husband have beautiful, white labs.

What problems do you think are in the world today, and what needs to be done?

I think worldwide that we need to figure out the problems with the Arabs and Jews. Somehow, we need to get that settled, and I don’t know how we’re going to do it. I have a lot of sympathy for the Arabs and Muslims but of course, for the Israelis a little more. We can’t just let them go on killing each other, though. I think that worldwide, we have to do something about that.

What advice do you have for younger generations (people like me) for deciding what they’re going to do with their lives?

I think you should think long and hard before you decide what your major is or what you want to do with your life. You need to look at it long and hard and not be so adamant about any one thing. If you think that this is what you want to do and all of a sudden something else comes up, well, follow that and see if you like it or not. I don’t think by the time you’re thirty years old that you need to know what your life’s going to be; I really don’t. I was in my fifties when I decided that I really wanted to be an archeologist. When in I worked in Syria, particularly, there were lots of Western archeologists there. Now, I guess there never will be again; that’s what breaks my heart is to see what’s happening to a country that I knew and loved. I loved Syria, and I thought the people were wonderful. We thought Hafez al-Assad, who was president then, was an evil man; he’s nothing compared to the Shi’a.

Anyway, think long and hard because while I was in Syria, some American archeologists came through, and they said, “If anybody wants to visit over the weekend, it’s fine” because they were working with Muslim workers who wanted Fridays off. So, we could go over on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday to work with them. I took a couple of weekends and worked with them. What kinds of things were they digging up? They were digging up a third millennium BC city. It was fantastic. I went back and stayed two or three months after I left the Foreign Service. I went back in 2001 maybe, and that was great. You can only go in the summertime in Syria because they won’t let you work without some of their archeologists, too. They’re off in the summer, so that’s when you go (in about 112 to 115 degree weather). That’s crazy! It is really crazy. We found statues of little animals, and you would think, “Why did they do that?” Then, I found out that if it was a farmland and they raised camels, they would have one camel represent ten to show [other people] how many camels there were or how many ox there were or whatever. Some people were so sure that the little miniatures were children’s toys, and I said, “I don’t think they’re children’s toys.” I mean they wouldn’t have that many, and they wouldn’t have been buried. So they were used as records? Yeah, to keep their records.

All the Countries Where Ms. Sallis Has Worked (In Order)

1. Venezuela
2. Lebanon
3. Dominican Republic
4. Lebanon (again)
5. Egypt
6. Lebanon (a third time)
7. Spain
8. Syria
9. Chile

Ms. Joan Sallis (Part I)

(Born 1936)

Parents: Jewell Hall and Augustus “Buck” Chamblin

Siblings: Frank Reed and “Little Buck”

Children: Julie

Where and when were you born?

I was born in the Mississippi Delta, a little bitty town called Sumner. It had a population of about 500 people—about 100 miles south from Memphis. I was born on March 31^st, and the main thing I’ve heard about the day I was born was that my mama and daddy were praying that I wouldn’t be born on April Fools! (We all laugh…)

So, Sumner, Mississippi was a great place to grow up; there was nothing going on. We had no movies; we didn’t even own a car, but I wouldn’t change it for anything. When I think back on it, it was just fabulous. You know, we had a little drugstore in the town where we could go get a Coke or go get a soda or something. It was just very, very nice—very, very little. I thoroughly enjoyed it, and I’m so sorry that I couldn’t stay there and raise my daughter there, but I couldn’t have… But, she got to know my mother, and Mother died when she was 78—no bad lungs or anything, an easy one—and my dad the same thing.

My family has heart problems and stuff—not cancer so far—and I wouldn’t have thought it was so great, except that it’s not a long, drawn-out illness or anything. At least, it wasn’t for either of my parents. I didn’t see either one of them suffer, so that was nice.

So, what were your parents’ names?

Jewell Hall and Buck Chamblin. His name was actually Lord Augustus Chamblin, but he was called “Buck.” Their first child was a son, and they called him “Buck,” so my daddy was “Big Buck,” and my brother was “Little Buck.”

And, I named my daughter Catherine Jewell, but I called her Julie. Her husband calls her “My Jewell” most of the time, and I wished I had called her “Jewell.” (But I thought that Julie would work.)

Did you have any siblings?

Yes, I have an older brother who is twelve years older than I am. We want to have a big “to-do” for his 90^th birthday next year, but he won’t let us… but we’ll see! Does he live here? No, he’s in California, but we bounce back and forth.

We try to get together every third year or so—the three of us. I have a younger brother who is six years younger than I am. So, we three would get together, and now, it’s become [a get-together] with all of us and our cousins who are still alive. We met in Las Vegas this year, and neither my daughter nor I had ever been. There were seventeen of us there, and it was just great.

We want to do something next year for Brother—that’s very southern; I call him “Brother.” My mother called her older brother “Brother” and her older sister “Sister.” Now, I wouldn’t let Frank (my younger brother) call me “Sister.” My name is Joan, come on… (We laugh…) But, the “Brother” has stuck. In fact, he signs letters to me “Brother.” It’s very, very southern, I guess.

My brothers both have family names. My name was not a family name at all. My mother’s name was Jewell Collins Hall, and her brothers teased her by calling her “Collins,” and she hated it. She said, “If I ever have a daughter, she’s not going to have a middle name. It’s just going to be what her name is, and that’s it.” So, I was named Joan Chamblin, and that was it!

People wouldn’t believe that I didn’t have a middle name, and I had a best friend—a catty best friend—who used to say, “Oh, her name’s really Ida Chamblin; she just doesn’t like for you to know it.” (We laugh…) She would put names out there that I didn’t really have, but that was all right. We survived.

What was your childhood like? Did you say it was out in the countryside?

Well, it was a tiny little town. On Saturday or Sunday mornings, you’d get up and have your breakfast, and then you’d go. You didn’t have to report back in unless you wanted lunch, but you had to be back before dark. And you’d just do your own thing? You’d just do your own thing. We would run in cotton fields (we were surrounded by cotton fields) and pull wagons with each other through the fields. It would make the farmers very angry, but they didn’t do anything. There wasn’t a lot to do; you made your own fun. I was a wonderful tree-climber. (I decided I should have been a boy, too!) (We laugh…) That sounds like fun. It was.

What about high school? What do you remember about high school?

Well, the school was in Sumner for the surrounding area, and we had an elementary school. The middle school was “junior high,” we called it, and then, there was high school. When I was in ninth grade, they consolidated the schools in the west half of the county I was in. The east half did whatever they wanted to—I don’t remember. Anyway, we jumped from being a tiny, little school with six people in a class to being a big school. (At least, it seemed like a big school to us.) We had really good teachers, and I loved school. I really enjoyed school. We had good teachers, surprisingly for that area. I hated math, but I loved everything else…

Did you like it better when it was smaller or when it was bigger?

No, I liked it when we consolidated because I got to know more people. I was happy both ways—when it was little and when it got bigger. It was fine.

Do you remember what your favorite subject was?

History and literature. I just loved history, and I realized much later on that what I wanted to be was an archeologist, but I never knew that until I was grown. I got to work on a dig one year, and I thought, “This is what I wanted to do. This is what I would’ve liked to have done.” It was ok, though, I got to play around with it. So, that was my choice, I guess.

What college did you go to?

I went to Mississippi College, a Baptist College in Clinton, Mississippi.

Was it normal for lots of people to go to college, or were you one of the few who went?

Well, I don’t know. I think most of my class went to college (from the different areas).  Most of the people I was friends with went to college. My folks really didn’t have any money, and I got a scholarship grant. It didn’t cost me anything for the first two years, and then, I was going to have to try to work and go to school, too. That didn’t suit me at all, so I just quit… which was a stupid thing to do, but at the time, it seemed like what I wanted to do. It really wasn’t what I wanted to do, but I just didn’t know. You don’t know when you’re that young; you don’t know what’s going to matter. I find now that my traveling and knowing that I would have liked to have been an archeologist was what I really wanted to do. I pretty much got to do what I wanted to do. I didn’t make a living out of it, but I loved it.

You said that when you got out of college, you were working in a job. What job was it?

Secretarial. (Laughs…) That was something I could do with only two years of college, and I could go to work immediately. I worked for—of all places—the telephone company in Jackson because my college was in Clinton (just outside of Jackson). So, a couple of us got apartments, and we worked. We got jobs there, and that was fine for a while. Then, I went to work for the Mississippi Employment Agency, and that was good. I went as a secretary. I worked in Jackson—the capital, and I worked around and up and down the state.

By that time, I had an idea that I wanted to try. I wanted to go to the State Department and work in the Foreign Services of the State Department. They wouldn’t accept me then because in the meantime, I had gotten married, stayed married for about four years, and took my child and left; it was the stupidest thing I had ever done. When you say, “How was your wedding day?” it was unhappy [for me]. I finally knew when everybody was coming to the wedding, and I thought, “What have I done? What am I doing?” It was a little, bitty town, and everybody was coming to the wedding; you can’t walk out on it. You can’t say, “I don’t want to do this.” Well, you can! But, I didn’t know you could. It’s a lot of pressure! It is; it’s a tremendous amount of pressure. When we were walking down the aisle, my dad said, “Joan, you’re crying. I’m the one who’s supposed to be crying.” I said, “Oh, alright Daddy,” and I cried all the way down the aisle. I was saying to myself, “Joan Chamblin, you are a smart girl. Why on earth are you doing this?” That was all I could think of… why on earth?

Do you think it would have been a totally different life if you had stuck with the married life.

Oh, I’m sure it would have been. I’m sure I would never have been able to go work overseas or any of this. It wouldn’t have happened. You know, things have a way of working out, and that’s what I figure—the fact that I didn’t stay with him and went to Jackson and worked in the State Employment Agency and met a lot of people. Then, I tried to go work for the Foreign Services, but they said, “No, we won’t take single women with children.” And now, that’s one of the best places for single women with children to go because you go overseas, and there’s lots of help for you and schools for your children. It would have been fine, but they didn’t realize that, I think, at that time.

So, they were building the Mississippi Test Facility off the Gulf Coast, so I went to work for NASA. It was fun; it really was. I worked for them, and we were combined with the place in Huntsville. Then, we were connected to Florida, and we were also connected with NASA in Houston. I worked in Mississippi, and then, I transferred to the space center in Florida. That was great. I was there during the Apollo Missions. We worked with the crews; I was there getting the crews what they needed and everything like that, so it was super interesting. Then, I was there during the whole Apollo Mission, which was the beginning of the astronauts and everything. Was that during the race with the Russians? Yes, yes it was, and I even got to go to Russia when we had the Apollo-Soyuz joint space mission with Russia, and that was great. Our boss in Houston sent me with the team; they had to have a secretary, and because I was so giddily excited, he said that he couldn’t have stood me if he didn’t send me. (We laugh…)

So, we did that and went to Houston when they started the shuttle program, which I didn’t think was nearly as interesting as the space program [in Florida], but [when I was in Florida,] I got to meet all the astronauts, and my daughter, who was a kid, got to meet them. She was so excited and had books signed by the astronauts. Then, when that was over, I transferred over to Houston to work with the space lab, which actually [transported] the shuttle back and forth to the station, and it just wasn’t nearly as much fun… as when I was in Florida.

Julie was in school. I lived in Houston, so she graduated from the high school down by the part that was over by the space station. She was happy, and she ended up going to college at Stephen F. Austen, which is right along the line between Texas and Louisiana. So, about that time, I heard about the space program again and that they were taking women now, so I applied again, and they accepted me. I felt horribly guilty about leaving my child because she wasn’t in college now, and she had met the guy she wanted to marry. That was all great, so… when I went [into the Foreign Services], Julie had already met the guy she wanted to marry. I went [into my job] in January, and they were going to get married in July. So that worked. She lived with my mother in Mississippi and went back and forth; we had real good friends in Houston that she stayed with when she was there. So, it worked beautifully. I came in, and she would come to visit me and pay her way back and forth. She could’ve come and lived with me, but she didn’t want to at that time. She came to visit me, though, and had a great time. She caused consternation among the Marine Corps guys because she was a doll! She said, “Mom, I’m going to marry David,” and I said, “It’s up to you; do what you want to do. Go out with him; you’re not being unfaithful, you know.” (Chuckles…) So, she had a good time. Then, I went back first to Mississippi, then to Houston where she got married.

So, when you were having all these different job opportunities and experiences with work, when did you know that you wanted to do something else and go on a different path?

For me, it was mainly where something was that drew me much more than a career because I didn’t ever consider that I was going to have a career. I always wanted to travel, and this was my chance to travel. Then, I worked in the administration section of the embassy and had a ball. I mean, it didn’t call for any knowledge or anything, but you had to be a good secretary, and you had to handle a lot of things. That was fine, and from then on, it was sort of “Where do you want to go, Joan?”

(To Be Continued in Part II…)